Беседа:Глигор Зисов

И друг апоскепчанин - Панайот Робев е убит в Загоричани през 1913 г. Дали не в същото клане на българи? Някой има ли повече информация за това второ загоричанско клане?--Akeckarov 08:34, 9 януари 2012 (UTC)

Ако се намери повече инфо, можем да направим и статия за клането от 1913.--Akeckarov 16:18, 9 януари 2012 (UTC)

Здравей, второ клане няма. По места - от Костурско до Серско, са прочиствани даскалите и видните дейци на комитетите. Това става главно на 2 пъти - преди Междусъюзническата и след ПСВ, когато хората са притискани да бягат към България. Това чудно се вписва в статията за Егейска Македония. --Подпоручикъ 17:16, 9 януари 2012 (UTC)

Е, ако са "прочистени" повече хора на едно място, може и да има клане. В статията се казва, че е убит заедно с други български учители и свещеници.--Akeckarov 15:53, 11 януари 2012 (UTC)

В източника се казва: "Още същата нощ го докараха во Загоричени и заедно со други учители и попове ги заклаха во траповете над селото" (с. 51). В други спомени (с. 52) се внася малко съмнение относно точното място на убийствата, но пак става дума за повече хора "издупени", т.е. изклани в околността на Загоричани. За съжаление, само толкова е.--Simin 11:07, 12 януари 2012 (UTC)

POV

I un-POV the greek article about Vasileiada (Zagoritsani) and I didn t saw any fact about killing teachers there on 1913. Is there any other source that mention this fact? Is this book mentionned as a reference a reliable source? (Im sorry for my broken English, I don`t speek Bulgarian).--Vagrand (беседа) 04:48, 17 септември 2012 (UTC)

I nominated the article in english wikipedia for deletion if you want to participate with arguments upon the wikipedia policy. Thank you.--Vagrand (беседа) 23:46, 17 септември 2012 (UTC)

The book „Шклифов, Благой. На кол вода пиехме. Записки за Христовите мъки на българите в Егейска Македония през ХХ век, София 2011“ is memoir style, the author Blagoy Shklifov (born in Chereshnitsa / Polikeraso) interview his father Stefan Shklifov from same village and other native people from Kostursko / Kastoria region. I cheked the book and the article of Gligor Zisov is written according to the source and is not biased in any way. He is mentioned in Zagorichani article in the part of Починали в Загоричани / Died in Zagorichani. Probably you accept the article as POV, because there are no greek sources to confirm that info, but as you may know thare are almost no greek sources to confirm the Zagorichani massacre either (exept Litoxou and this). Keep in mind for short period Zagorichani lost 50% of its population, from 2 320 people in 1913 to 1 246 in 1920 - as the official greek sources states. Of course most people left the village to Bulgaria, United States or Canada, but some of them could be killed. By the way, in greek article of Vasiliada it is still mentioned the „battle“ of Zagorichani of 1905. Just wanted to mention in this case „battle“ is pure euphemism. --Подпоручикъ (беседа) 07:16, 18 септември 2012 (UTC)

The book cannot confirm historic facts. It's almost an autobiograhical book and by this facts is not reliable. They are also except greek and bulgarian bibliography that could discribe the facts, but any search in Google Books or other websites can confirm the facts in Aposkepos and Zagoritsani. There are many greek sources that in the battle between the komitatzijis and makedonamachoi there were civilian casulties. Lithoxoou is not very reliable because in his sources he replace the term Bulgarian to Macedonians and in his research he ignores other quotations metionned in his ressources. Latetly, in his website, I can see that his is doing an efford to review his records and reverses those changes to Bulgarians and B. (?). This english wikipedia, an autobiography template could be added. Another fact for Zagoritsani, the population on 1905 was 2.500 and on 1913 was 2.320.[1] The diffence between the two sensus is -680 redidents. This number is normal when all villages including Kleisoura, Kostarazi and Vogatsiko, has a dicline in their population. Another thing is that the difference in the number of men and women is not significant when men were rebels. And if we mentionned the 1920 census, the number is logical when villages of Vlach and Greek speaking population have the same differnce in the numbers of total population.--Vagrand (беседа) 15:53, 18 септември 2012 (UTC)

The term massacre is bias when in almost all battles in populated area have civilian casulties. The term massavre describes mass extermination of civilians. And to be honest, the number of women and children killed in Zagoritsani on 1903 its a very small (probably 6 women and two kids) to such a village of 3300 to 2500 residents.--Vagrand (беседа) 16:00, 18 септември 2012 (UTC)

In Greek and English wikipedia, the name of an article is set mainly according to the bibliography of the language in witch the encyclopedia is written. In Greek bibliography, this battle is mentionned as Επιχείρηση or Μάχη, not Σφαγή.--Vagrand (беседа) 16:16, 18 септември 2012 (UTC)

It seems a missunderstanding occured. I don't want to start interwiki war, but this way you will lead me into such. Massacre describes mass extermination of civilians and so was the Zagorichani massacre, because as it is proved innocent people were massacred, no matter the count of women and children.. It is very rude to make such counting, because that way you can harm people's feelings. It's not about the count, but the way they were killed (same case for jews died in Holocaus, armenians who were killed in Ottoman empire or.. greek victims in Macedonian struggle, i don't remember someone who tried to count or neglect them). The conclusion that it was massacre is not mine or bulgarian point of view, but of consuls of Austro-Hungary, Russian Empire and Great Britain, also by the Italian gandarm officer. All this happened more then 100 years ago, they visited the burned village and described what they saw. Also, Karavangelis, Tsontos and Raptis could speak of "battle in Zagorichani" but their point of view is very biased, because they participated in this event. As you may know - Zagorichani massacre is the reason Karavangelis left Kastoria under the preassure of Great Powers! This is enough on this topic. I have read Litoxou articles and indeed he is manipulator, but so far only he and that journalist (this) wrote articles on Zagorichani topic in greek. Keep in mind i also speak greek, no matter i prefere not to speak it in Bulgarian Wikipedia, at least other people could follow our conversation and to join it if they need to add something.

Anyway, this conversation is about Gligor Zisov and the source book of his biography. Blagoy Shklifov is accepted as one of most reliable bulgarian authors about Kostur region and its people habbits. You havent seen the book so far, so i do not agree with your argument that "It's almost an autobiograhical book and by this facts is not reliable". Memoir books are used widely in history writings all around the world. Sure, they present personal point of view and selective memory, but you can denny it as reliable source only if you have sources that reject specific fact in it. Same case with Germanos Karavangelis memoirs for instance. I could not agree with some or all of his writings, but there cannot be find better source for his revolutionary work in Kastoria in the beggining of 20 century, could i? Also to make NPOV an article in Wikipedia is not needed to delete certein facts, but to add all of the points of view. --Подпоручикъ (беседа) 17:59, 18 септември 2012 (UTC)

And people feelings never included in history books. Massacres can be produced in populated areas when a war is held, wars are made throughout the history of mankind. Without references on books or newspapers this atricle is still an unsoursed article with propaganda. Memoires cannot be used exclusively as sourses. I think that you will agree with this. To return to the article. Do you think that this person is notable according to notability for people in wikipedia (general aspect, I don't know the sush criterias of bulgarian wiki, see also [2]) or this article has reliable sources that gives the article a strong notability? --Vagrand (беседа) 00:36, 19 септември 2012 (UTC)

And one last thing. Ι dο not doubt about the credibility of the author of the book, I disagree with the use of the book to support the biography of a person in such a delicate issue. The article is unreliable, because the first editor made an none appropiate use of sources and the author of the book has a conflict of interest with the subject.--Vagrand (беседа) 00:47, 19 септември 2012 (UTC)

Barely true, since Romantinism more or less feelings and thoughts of persons are used in historic works. Massacres can be done in every situation - in war, uprising or in civil war, as the situation in Ottoman empire between 1904-1908 has been described by many scholars. I think this person (Zisov) and those like him are notable enough for those reasons: he died a long time ago and the space between writing his article and his lifetime is enough to do sober judgment on him; second: in whole of Macedonia priests, teachers and revolutionaries (no matter exarchist or patriarchist) were the most famous persons and upon their conciousness the village choose side. Zhelevo (Andartiko) had many greek priest, teachers and andarts, after 1905-1906 they lost power and the village transformed from greek stronghold to bulgarian one. So, the role of those people in native's daily life overtop averages was more inportant then the other natives. Once again, to prove there is NPOV in BG Wikipedia - you can check articles of Велика Трайкова, Яни Пицула, Зисо Узунов, Търпена Узунова and many more. No matter this in some days im going to check for some more info about Gligor Zisov in books and archives. When or if i find new sources i will add them, so you can remove the POV templete. Ok? --Подпоручикъ (беседа) 08:24, 19 септември 2012 (UTC)

In the Illiden uprising, 10.000 people were killed by the Ottoman army (civilians and komitadjis), you should add them too ? The are many issues about the accuracy of the article (see english article). Глигор Зисов was never taught in the city of Kastoria, he was not a schoolmaster and at this time their was no a war that can to justify the presence of Greek, Serbian or Bulgarian army.--Vagrand (беседа) 17:21, 19 септември 2012 (UTC)

If there are enough non travial sources for any victim - why not? So i understood this - according to you this article is biased, because it states that soldiers from greek army killed bulgarians during the time Bulgaria and Greece were allies? Am i right? --Подпоручикъ (беседа) 19:00, 19 септември 2012 (UTC)

P.S. „Kostursko“ in bulgarian means Kostur (Castoria) region, but not the city itself. In bulgarian Wiki there is single article for city Костур (град), and another for the region, called Костурско. Just missed to change it in my previous edit, thats it. --Подпоручикъ (беседа) 19:32, 19 септември 2012 (UTC)

No, the article is POV because the writing is biased and subjective, there is no scientific notation and there is only one reference for a disputed historical event. (Please don`t prejuge me, I think that I have a good reputation in Greek wiki).--Vagrand (беседа) 21:53, 19 септември 2012 (UTC)

And why even the article in Bulgarian wiki doesn't mention anything about those killings in the articles of Zagoritsani and Tseresnitsa. Those authors didn`t found anything about that?--Vagrand (беседа) 22:15, 19 септември 2012 (UTC)

No one stated that article of Zagorichani is finished or that covers all historic (and etc.) events that happened there - if it was probably we would vote it for „Featured articles“, but it isn't anyway. You can follow history of the article to check how it was improved by the time. It was started in 2006 as stub article, short after first sources were added. You can see also the article havent been written rapidly, but it has its present look after 6 years of developing. So that explain why some facts could be missing (And by same logic i could put POV templete for almost all articles in greek wiki concerning Macedonia, first because they dont mention bulgarians as main population of many villages, and second because books like Penelopi Delta's „Mystics of the swamp“ were used as sources - which is a novel book, but not a historical research). There is no need to argue about the presence of greek army in Macedonia after october 1912 and that problems occured with the probulgarian population, same can be said about Bulgarian army and progreek population in Eastern Macedonia. In Bulgaria some corpuses with documets were published on this matter and im going to check them in the library, so that way i will answer your questions, because not only Grigor Zisov is victim of this period, and will give you the needed sources. I do not act with prejudice for no one and this is obvious with participating in this conversation. --Подпоручикъ (беседа) 06:37, 20 септември 2012 (UTC)

In the discussion page of English Wikipedia en:Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gligor Zisov I provide some arguments according to the policy of english wikipedia. I know that Bulgarian Wikipedia may have different policies, but all wikipedias have common principales. This talk page is not a forum, and I don`t want to discuss about the greek or the bulgarian propaganda or if many or less articles of the greek or the bulgarian wikipedia are biased or not, or what a massacre is or not. Unfortunately, I didn`t see any argument about why according to you this article is not biased. The only thing you said, correct me if I'm wrong, that all victims should have an article if there are travial [oth?] sourses [This is not true in wikipedia], why memoires can be used to discribe facts when its the only source that can have also a conflict of interest and why Blagoy Shklifov is accepted as one of most reliable bulgarian authors when I didn`t see any of his publications mentionned in the whole english wikipedia that are used to discribe the genelar and main aspects of the slavic languages or the history of the region of Macedonia [3] [4].--Vagrand (беседа) 20:14, 20 септември 2012 (UTC)

Sure you dont want to discuss biased articles in EL Wiki or on macedonian struggle topic in EN wiki, because we can spare all the time till Armageddon to vote them for deletion. Blagoy Shklifov is linguist and as such has many published works - mostly memoirs of people from Kastoria region, and the fact his name is often mentioned and quoted in Wikipedia (and elsewhere) means he is enough reliable source. I accept our conversation here is finished, i will add my opinion in page for request for deletion. But, please next time do not put my words in sentences i havent written. I didnt said anywhere that all the victims need personal article, but only if there are enough sources and at least little historical significance. --Подпоручикъ (беседа) 20:44, 20 септември 2012 (UTC)

I m not here to discuss how biased are or not artivles of Bulgarian or Greek language wikipedia. I m here to discuss why I put the POV template in this article. To conclude this of topic discussion, you never said that victims must at least little historical significance. But you mentionned that all victims of attrocities (with sources) must have an article. Do you think that all Jews of Holocaust and all civilian-victims of the 2nd World War, for example, can have their article ? Do you thing that all Bulgarian priest and teachers in Kastoria region who was forced to left should have their article? Глигор Зисов is not yet proved to be an historical figure caused of lack of sources and a general phenomena of attrocities of all parts in the Balkan Wars. The selective quotations that disctibe his life and poor information, biased this article. Can you prove at least another reliable source that confirm the death of teacher?--Vagrand (беседа) 20:41, 21 септември 2012 (UTC)

This start to look like a game in which the rules change during the game. First you wanted a source to proove the presence of greek army in Kastoria region in the time late 1912 - early 1913, now you demand for another source of Zisov's death. As i said before, next week i will have enough time to go to library and to search in some documents, that currently cannot be find online. I made comparison between biased articles because its normal go give examples when you argue on some topic. I showed you articles of greek people killed by IMARO members, they are also stubs and the lack of sources for their biografies is also seen, but noone reised a voice against. I did't said all the victims must have articles and no one created such articles so far. Do my sentence "If there are enough non travial sources for any victim.." need more explanation? --Подпоручикъ (беседа) 22:08, 21 септември 2012 (UTC)

We all try to improve wikipedia and make it better, based on common values, like the policy that all the community agreed as a base to further contributions. We should be more carefull in biographies witch needed reliable sourses (I don`t undestrand the word "varial" that you say) that proves that it`s a notable figure. The presence of the greek army is well pointed in the report, ok. But, the POV about the article, is that the way that the citations is taken, like "Яз гледам свичко това и се чудя майка ли ги има родено тия зверове", and the structure of it, without describing the historic facts of that period in the area to help the viewer, takes position. The article has other problems too. The book, with its memoirs (one of them is the father of the author), consist clearly original research and the primary sourses may be used to support content in an article, but they cannot prove notability of the person. Another thing, that with the current text of the article, many things are unclear. And this discussion may help as improve it. I wish you good luck with your research.--Vagrand (беседа) 00:41, 22 септември 2012 (UTC)

Another case: After the murder of Alexandros Grigoropoulos, large scale riots began in Athens in 2008. Althought the significant coverage of his name and the event, he is still not encyclopedic (notable) figure. Similarly Gregory Zisos (Γρηγόριος Ζήσου ή Γρηγόριος Ζήσωφ) if we could ascribe his name in Greek, is not encyclopedic (notable) because he was killed by Greek soldiers, but because there are no sources that mention him as a person who participate in an event and because of this is notable. A injustice death of a person do not make him notable.--Vagrand (беседа) 01:19, 22 септември 2012 (UTC)

My pesonal criteria for dead people are extremely low - teachers, prominent membres of the revolutionary committees, prominent members of the local comunes - both Greek or Bulgarian - pass. --Мико (беседа) 05:12, 22 септември 2012 (UTC)

Miko I agree with you, I have the same personal criteria about dead people of this area who where rebels, revolutionnaries or agents. But according the article, he was nothing more than a civilian and teacher who was killed. And without any other sourses about his actions during his life, the article does not conrespond the criteria about notable people and the selected quotations like the Greek soldiers acting like animals, biased the whole text.Vagrand (беседа) 13:39, 22 септември 2012 (UTC)