Беседа:Баян Йолгий

Олгий / Йолгий

Преместено от Потребител беседа:SilentShout. →Спири 07:08, 12 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Привет!Why Mongolian character Ө is transliterated with Йо? Is it an officially established transliteration? Bogomolov.PL 11:59, 5 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Well, in Bulgarian you cannot start a word with Ьо,so it has to be with Йо, which has to be the closest to Ө (Oe). --Дан 12:21, 5 ноември 2008 (UTC)

But why ьо? Is it an official transliteration? Why Ое? It is a single vowel, not diphthong, which is not О, У, Е. Everybody can expirate air with this sound, but how to describe it? In en:wiki was a decision to use umlauts to show not the sound but the letters difference.Bogomolov.PL 13:03, 5 ноември 2008 (UTC)

There is no strict rule for how Mongolian names should be transliterated in Bulgarian. Plus, you realize that if it's not О, У and Е than there is no actual solution to the "problem". After all Mongolian and Bulgarian might share the same alphabet, but this doesn't mean they share the same rules and a single vowel in one language might need two vowels in another. Another thing is the fact that almost everything came through Russian transliteration which actually gives it as an У, but still it's not acceptable. Oh, and I didn't actually understand what do you want to be done?--Дан 13:11, 5 ноември 2008 (UTC)

I just was surprised with ьо. So it is no transliteration rules defined. In Russian Ө is transliterated as У and Э (Мөрөн=>Мурэн, Дөргөн=>Дургэн etc.).There is no actual solution to the "problem" you said, but you use ьо/йо, that is your solution. I was involved in the transliteration establishing in en:wiki and pl:wiki, so it was interesting for me to know how this problem was resolved here. In Macedonian Wiki they use О for Ө transliteration. I think it is may be more reasonable (it is no consonant й in transliteration not present in Mongolian, Олгий is better than Йолгий, I guess), but decision belongs to you, Дан.Bogomolov.PL 14:04, 5 ноември 2008 (UTC)

We didn't know there is any transliteration problem until now. I guess I will have to ask some people to check if any reliable source in Bulgarian gives it any other way. If they state it again as Йо/Ьо I'll leave it this way, because it will appear to be the accepted form here, but if they say different or nothing we will move them just to O. I believe that's the only "solution" for the moment. --Дан 18:22, 5 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Здравей, Дан! Според един пресен български източник, издаден през 2007: Светът - карти, имена, числа (справочник по страни), въпросният Баян Йолгий e даден като Баян Улгий. Имената на наколко други аймаци също се различават. При наличието на източник, който е сериозен и може да ни е ръководен, според мен може би ще трябва да направим корекции. Как смяташ? --Stanchev 21:55, 5 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Аз разполагам с абсолютно същия източник, който ми е постоянно под ръка и за да се разреши казуса изглежда ще се унифицират имената, въпреки че и там не всички имена отговарят на истината (пример Улан Батор написан като Улан Батаар или Дархан Ул като Дархан Уул). Мен лично изобщо не ме бърка, подвел съм се, че на всички езици с латиница са запазили умлаутите, а няма човек, който ако знае какво е умлаута да си помисли, че това е само за разграничаване на О с О с издишване (нещо от този сорт). --Дан 05:52, 6 ноември 2008 (UTC)

So only relevant sources can decide. May be in Bulgaria is an official body for geographic features naming? Or Academy of Sciences has an institute of Bulgarian language? Or official state mapping agency issued maps of Mongolia? In Съвет за икономическа взаимопомощ times a lot of Bulgarian instiutions vere involved in the cooperation (help) with Mongolia.Bogomolov.PL 12:19, 6 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Нямам достатъчно познания за да коментирам лингвистичните особености. Освен това за географските понятия разчитам на географите, не на преводачите (така смятам, че е редно). Давай да поправяме и да си посочваме източника, както си му е реда. А Улан Батор все пак си е наложена форма отдавна и има доста източници които да го потвърдят. Поздрави! --Stanchev 17:09, 8 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Any way we have established names (Улан Батор) and the names to be transliterated. The principles of this transliteration must be common for Bulgarian Wiki, I see.Bogomolov.PL 10:36, 10 ноември 2008 (UT

Намерих друг източник, където град Олгий си е изписан като Йолгий: Страните в света - 2007-2008. Справочник. Така че се оказва, че няма реално установено изписване на тези имена./I have found another source in Bulgarian which uses Йолгий, not Олгий, which for the time being that I will not change it, unless I find another reliable source. --Дан 11:59, 11 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, I can understand Slavonic languages. But it is possible that a system was not established as such, but are the relevant sources where the principles of transliteration were used in fact, so we can derive this rules from it (you see I mean scientific/encyclopedic books or maps issued by gov./scien. bodies). I have no right to say Йолгий is incorrect transliteration, but I can say that it is too far from the pronounciation. I can suppose that socialist period maps/books used Russian transliteration, but now - modern Bulgaria had more actual problems to resolve than establish this new transliteration. Bogomolov.PL 06:59, 12 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Правилно е Йолгий. Ето тук [1] е посочено, че се предава с "ЙО". Прон 11:02, 12 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Аз точно от там съм се ръководел, за да го впиша Йо. Bogomolov.PL казва, че това било установено само, за да се разграничавали О и Ө, като второ било някакво специално О с издихание, въпреки че аз не си представям как може и в нашия език да се разграничават, а пък да не се вписват по различен начин. --Дан 11:09, 12 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Междувременно проверих в Български военен атлас за подобна дума, тъй като аймаците в него ги няма. Намерих град Йондьорхан до Улан Батор. Предаден е в N-карта на Майкрософт като Õndõrhaan. Виждаме, че е предадено с "ЙО". По принцип когато има букви като издихания за България си имаме правила свързани със спецификата на бълг. език. Прон 11:57, 12 ноември 2008 (UTC)

А, тъй! Ей това Õndõrhaan отговаря на проблемната буква Ө, защото четох, че понякога тази буква се предава и с Õ или Ö (дано не се бъркам). --Дан 18:00, 12 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Using of Ö instead of Ө was formal, nonphonetic. It was latinization only, dear Прон. Ö is not two phonemes (Й+О) but only one in Mongolian (it has no en:Labialisation). If it was ЙО in English it would be YO or IO and nobody needs umlauts. Lets try to transliterate not latinization, but original Cyrillic Mongolian alphabet. It is clear that all letters are equal, as it is with Russian (Mongolian script derives from Russian) we use Ы=>Ъ etc. and the problem is with two letters only: Ү and Ө (in latinization Ü and Ö). There are several possible decisions:

• As it is Cyrillic alphabet we can use Ү and Ө (Лүн, Өлгий). In english alphabeth there are no umlauts, as in modern Bulgarian there are no Ү and Ө.
• We can use О and У instead of Ө and Ү respectively (Лун, Олгий). Difference in Mongolian У - Ү is not clear for non-Mongolians, but Ү is the same as У with more labialisation. In couple О - Ө the difference is that Ө has no labialisation at all, it is like a vocal expiration.
• We can use Russian style of transliteration, but why? This option will be a transliteration of not original (Russian) transliteration. Using У and Э instead of Ө was supressed by using Buryat language rules.

And the problem of double wovels (аа, оо, уу, ээ etc.). Double letters in Mongolian does not mean two wovels, but a long one. Using double wovels would make Bulgarian transliteration closer to the original Mongolian.

Bogomolov.PL 07:14, 13 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Dear Bogomolov. I admire your deep, seemingly professional understanding of the discussed matter, but I am afraid that Wikipedia is too unequal or too unsuitable for the causes you pursue.

Considering your appeal Lets try to transliterate not latinization, but original Cyrillic Mongolian alphabet, please allow me to inform you that Wikipedia is not a place for original research and none of the editors here is in position of instituting new philological rules. We do not make scientific hypotheses and do not draw conclusions. Our work is based on published sources, we are doing encyclopedia, we are not doing science.

The problem, as I see it, is that we have not find a general source in Bulgarian regarding the Mongolian-Bulgarian transliteration. And we are not those who can lay down the rules for it. Thus we allow to be guided only by the sources about this very particular name, and not make attempts to draw any generalizations.

The best thing I can advise you is to contact relevant scientists and experts from Bulgarian Academy of Sciences or some of the Bulgarian universities where Mongolian language is taught (Prof. Alexander Fedotov from Sofia University, maybe?). Inquire them of the status quo with the published sources and/or propose a joint research if you believe that something is wrong and has to be revised. Finally, publish your results, and this may give us a good ground for further discussions and reconsideration. Until then, I believe that this article should remain under this title, because it is referenced against sources, it is not our invention and original research.

Thank you for your attention and cooperation! →Спири 08:07, 13 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Сгрешил съм. Наложи се да го гледам увеличено с лупа. Точките не са наклонени. Изписано е Öndörhaan. Но сравнителната транскрипция с бълг. вонеен атлас е достатъчен аргумент, че у нас е прието да е "ЙО".Прон 08:17, 13 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Dear Спири! The source of misunderstanding is that we can not create transliteration system for any language (and publish it using WikiPedia). But we need a common approach to this question in practical transliteration in Wiki. So were created en:Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mongolian) as inner WikiPedia rules. It is not normal when the same name is transliterated in a different way by different authors. WikiPedia rules creation is not an original research, you see. Bogomolov.PL 09:05, 13 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Мале, мале какъв проблем стана! И се усложнява още повече. За това как е прието мисля, че не е много ясно. И не е вярно, че няма източник, но явно се пренебрегва това. Светът - карти, имена, числа, 2007 е създаден именно с цел да служи като справочник и то най-вече за административните единици. Позоваваме се и толкова. --Stanchev 10:43, 13 ноември 2008 (UTC)

But is Светът - карти, имена, числа a legal, official source? Issued by Acad.of Sc. or govern. institutions? If so - we can use it as a relevant source, if no - we will use it as one of the possible decisions. But, I want be understood correctly, Bulgarian language is sovereign and so Bulgarians are making decisions. But most correct is transliteration of original Mongolian (Cyrillic!) script, not its latinization. ЙО is coming from Crillic=>Latinization=>Cyrillic garbled version. Umlauts in Mongolian latinization are conditional, trust me. Bogomolov.PL 11:47, 13 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Столицата на аймака в "Български военен атлас" е предаден като Йолгий. Прон 07:45, 14 ноември 2008 (UTC)

В "Страните в Света 2007 / 2008" на Ангел Луканов и колектив столицата на Баян Йолгий, също е предадена като Йолгий.--Дан 09:02, 14 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Дан translated into bg:wiki a number of Mongolia administrative divisions articles.

This is the summary:

• 1)mong: Э => bulg: Е
• 2)mong: Е => bulg: Е
• 3)mong: ИА => bulg: Я
• 4)mong: Ь => bulg: И
• 5)mong: Ы => bulg: И
• 6)mong: Ү => bulg: У
• 7)mong: Ё => bulg: ЙО
• 8)mong: Ө => bulg: ЙО/ЬО
• 9)mong: - => bulg: ignored

The rest of Mongolian letters were transliterated as the repective Bulgarian letters.

Comment:

mong: ИА => bulg: Я why not ИА ?

mong: Ь => bulg: И why not Ь ?

mong: Ы => bulg: И why not Ъ ?

mong: Е => bulg: Е why not ЙЕ ?

mong: З => bulg: З why not ДЗ ?

mong: Д => bulg: Д why not ДЖ ?

mong: - => bulg: ignored why not "-"?

This is my questions only, dear Bulgarian collegues can make the existing practice analysis. Bogomolov.PL 20:33, 14 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Here is possible to hear how Mongolian spells Ө (it is hip-hop, one of the best mongolian teams "Tatar") Bogomolov.PL 21:02, 14 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Уикипедия:Правила за наименуване

Географски имена

За имената на географски обекти се прилагат следните правила:

* Ако има утвърдено българско име, за име на статията се използва то (например Париж).

* В противен случай имената се транскрибират на кирилица (по произношение).

So to resolve a problem of geographical object naming we need:

• check a Bulgarian name presence (Улан Батор, Сухе Батор, Селенга, Хентей etc.), if present - use Bulgarian name, this is the Bulgarian Wiki
• else use Cyrillic alphabet to describe the phonemes of the name (transcription). In this case we need have a rule(s) of this phonetic transcription

So - no transliteration. From this point of view several questions become clear:

mong: ИА => bulg: ИА

mong: Ь => bulg: Ь

mong: Ы => bulg: Ъ

mong: Е => bulg: ЙЕ

mong: З => bulg: ДЗ

mong: Д => bulg: ДЖ

And our main question with Mongolian Ө.

Using of ЙО/ЬО is a calque of traditional Bulgarian transliteration of Turkish letter Ö. The Turkish sound encoded with this letter is different from Mongolian sound coded with the Ө letter, so transcription has to be different. Bogomolov.PL 20:32, 17 ноември 2008 (UTC)

Dear, Bogomolov.PL, I think I hadn't be clear enough for you, but there are no actual rules how to transliterate Mongolian names into Bulgarian so do not try to create such. Wikipedia doesn't happen to be the place where names are established, more likely we lean to sources. When two or more sources indicate that one name is spelled in this manner it means that it's already an established name. Do not try to change names which already exist as you do with Селенга. I begin to question your presence here and what you are actually aiming at. There is no main question as if you have followed the discussion at least two sources give the name as Йолгий. --Дан 20:54, 17 ноември 2008 (UTC)

• I think I hadn't be clear enough for you, but there are no actual rules how to transliterate Mongolian names into Bulgarian so do not try to create such. Dear Дан! Let you know there are actual rules how transliterate (bg:wiki wants transcriptions, you see) Mongolian names into Bulgarian, but you and me don't know these rules. You can get them from 3d side expert was mentioned by Спири before (prof.Fedotoff, Спири can say you how to contact with him, professor is ready do help you). Transliterating (not phonetic) is not welcomed in bg:wiki. You know, Дан, established Bulgarian names list is not too long. But what to do with the rest? Somebody, who wants to add information to bg:wiki needs transcribe (phonetically) Mongolian names. Here we have hundreds of Mongolian names transliterated (not phonetically) possibly without respecting existing rules, using selfmade rules (so do not try to create such you said, but address was wrong). This fact is not important for you, dear Дан, but it is not respecting existing rules of articles namimg in bg:wiki. Do you like this? Wikipedia doesn't happen to be the place where names are established - you are right, but address was wrong. I never established any name in bg:wiki, you see. Discussing about the different aspects of the problem (what I've done), but practical introducing of selfmade rules (what had already happened) was not my job. Do you, dear Дан, really want to get these rules? If so - get them, you know how and where. If you don't - say me, I will get them from relevant source for the rest of Bulgarian wikipedians and will ask your collegues add them to the Монголски език or Монголска писменост articles. More likely we lean to sources - you said, so go ahead to sources. I think I was clear enough for you.
• When two or more sources indicate that one name is spelled in this manner it means that it's already an established name - you lost only one word - relevant. We need relevant sources only. But what to do with two or more versions supported with the relevant sources? This is the Wikipedia mission - to choose, or just inform about the different options (if is not impossible to choose).
• Do not try to change names which already exist as you do with Селенга - you really think so? I never changed any article name in bg:wiki. And I never wanted to change Селенга name as it is one of the established Bulgarian names. I just asked the Селенге article author why he uses not established name instead of Селенга. So, dear Дан, you missed with your critiques again.
• I begin to question your presence here and what you are actually aiming at - you said. Don't you, dear Дан, like my edits in bg:wiki? I've made dozens of the edits. Show me, and the rest of wikipedians, any topic of my not constructive edits. If you think I'm a vandal - you need support your opinion with facts, if no - it looks like some kind of personal...

What I'm aiming at. I want help you in Mongolia articles creating in any possible way - to correct a lot of technical and typo mistakes in the existing articles and to prevent this kind of mistakes in future. Your huge work in this field is very impressive and all my activity was to bring my help in this process. As you noticed, I've checked a lot of articles you translated (and my posts in these articles also were translated by you, thank you). It was easy to me check sum names spelling because all of them I remember by hart, for all of them I've provided coords (you can find them in Google Earth - I am glad that everybody can find every village in Mongolia in Google Earth/Map). All sum maps posted in the aimag articles were my contribution (I'm a professional cartographer). So my job is present in bg:wiki too. A lot of my posts were translated in Mongolian too - I'm proud of this.

• There is no main question as if you have followed the discussion at least two sources give the name as Йолгий You are right, Дан, again. I've told the same at Спири talk page. I want be sure this manner of name translation is correct. Let you ask prof. Fedotoff about the established rules. I hope this discussion will be over soon. Bogomolov.PL 23:13, 17 ноември 2008 (UTC)